Black Knight and Guardian

[Myth]

Mainly hoping for a reply for Vandread because he is a MMO Guru xD.

If it isen't obvious I am going Knight for the 1st class change. I was just curious about the advantages and uses of each of these second classes. From what it looks like to me Guardian would be useful for the stronger pit bosses due to Swiftness (33% cooldown reduce right? need confirmed.) and Black Knight would be better for leveling because of his AoE Taunt [Torment] and his extreme defense buff [Barricade].

Right now I am Black Knight but when 2.2.3 goes live I am debating on which one to go. I only have limited play time as a BK and no play time as Guardian but want to know PvE uses and if any, PvP uses.

[AiJin]

a friend of mine once used guardian,yeah it has a faster cooldown and i think ill go with a guardian,since it is teh same as a BK hence the skills of it^^

[Myth]

a friend of mine once used guardian,yeah it has a faster cooldown and i think ill go with a guardian,since it is teh same as a BK hence the skills of it^^

Barricade will be nice, I assume, for leveling in the new elven map considering they will hit pretty hard and it gives me about 10k more defense at the moment.

But obviously if they lose aggro easily you will NEED to go Guardian..

[AiJin]

Barricade will be nice, I assume, for leveling in the new elven map considering they will hit pretty hard and it gives me about 10k more defense at the moment.

But obviously if they lose aggro easily you will NEED to go Guardian..

Indeed.




actually i only used BK once and didn't even try becoming a guardian.but when i compared or let's say through observations,when we are elven hunting we can kill more mobs when my friend used guardian^^

[Bloodrealm]

well guardians are a real good at pvp if you know how to use one. force cooldown+14k gen attack+15k+ def=pwnage

[hypermagz]

another question i want to add, is it better if i go knight>guardian or champion>guardian?

[Vandread]

Mainly hoping for a reply for Vandread because he is a MMO Guru xD.
._.'

If it isen't obvious I am going Knight for the 1st class change. I was just curious about the advantages and uses of each of these second classes. From what it looks like to me Guardian would be useful for the stronger pit bosses due to Swiftness (33% cooldown reduce right? need confirmed.) and Black Knight would be better for leveling because of his AoE Taunt [Torment] and his extreme defense buff [Barricade].
Swiftness is indeed a 33% cooldown reduction (or for some even just -3s if I'm not mistaken; whichever bonus is better is given).

Black Knight's defensive buff is total win and I absolutely -loved- seeing 'em use it when I was a Bellato. It made things so much easier to drop what's Cora's "tank" class.
What people haven't noticed is that BK's defensive buff does the following:
-% damage output
+% blockrate
+%ADP (insane)
and now the not listed, barely ever noticed one: -DSR.

Why do I say it destroys DSR? Because it's quite obvious it does that. If you are not geared for block-rate, you'd have to be a total dip-shit to use this buff. All it does is destroy your chances at living to be honest - though I can see the use for just running in and taking the initial spike, but after continuous pounding, you'd be better off without it, than with it. For the ones interested in it; if you're a BK and you got some spare ports/time, just run a check on Dagnu or so. You will see that against extremely high offensive power attacks (skills, or high-end mobs, etc; basically where DSR matters) that you'll get hit for more with the buff than without it. Own observations here by the way, I might just have been very unlucky.

It's a bit of theory-craft still actually; back in giga3, where DSR didn't matter as much (but still did btw, just that ADP had more of an effect :tongue:) a friend of mine had RL on Cora (on RFX) and was a BK. He's given me the gear setup he had back then as well as some numbers; he actually confirmed that a regular Acc Gladius->Assaulter managed to out-tank him as a BK on Varas. Varas itself isn't even a high-end damage mob (well maybe it kinda was back then, but meh). And yes, he was running the Barricade buff. Explanation? Well... First we need to take into account that you couldn't get more than 40% def bonus from elementals on Cora during G3, as there simply weren't defense rings - they got added in G4.2. Now, that leaves the Acc at an advantage of 50% (2 imperfect elementals :wink:), which is offset once more by the BK being RL. Add the buffs on each and of course you would expect the BK to be better at tanking - but I guess not. He got hit more often and with higher numbers -> say wut? :confused:

What it boils down to is that you need high HP for the later end pitbosses. As always they're tanked based on HP/DSR and not based on ADP/DSR. Now with Cora, the issue is that you already need a crapton of Innana's to get to healing one tank - if you use a twintank system, you'd need even more (since you can't swap after each hit) or your healers would need to switch targets if the other tank taunts. That's simply not doable. That is why I opted for the Guardian route for the DBros when I was on Cora.

Now you could say - well, I will use a quick skill on a BK and I'll be fine. Yeah, you would be fine on aggro-holding, for sure. Now the drawback is: a Guardian using a build-up pot generates more HP than a BK on a q-skill. And since HP is where it's at.... add to that, the Barricade buff nerfing DSR... etc. Guardian just wins on the high-end PBs. It also still does a fair job still on the multi-target ones. Why is that? The Guardian's skill also works on Vampire Groan. If you have a decent-strong Leon's Knife either with Destruction talics, or possibly the BBB amulet, you will get the life-drain off of your AoE's as you finish off the minions to get them to re-pop. Granted, against multi-target pitbosses you would need to have your DPS-crew rigged with a brain, which can be quite hard to find here after all. Not using AoE's or splash-attacks was one of the hardest things ever for your average Cora, gg. (I am sure some of you that played Cora back then remember the infamous flood on RC whenever I had to tank Varas.)

What you could do to help resolve the above problem, partially, would be to use a MT / OT system. Have the BK OT grab the entire shit, then have the Guardian MT pull out the PB and stand to the side with that. Then the DPS-crew has free reign to do whatever they want.

Right now I am Black Knight but when 2.2.3 goes live I am debating on which one to go. I only have limited play time as a BK and no play time as Guardian but want to know PvE uses and if any, PvP uses.
Guardian = skillspammer with Swiftness + powerdrainer with Tendon Ripper.
Guardian makes for a better MT than a BK ever will be, as it's a guaranteed aggro-holder no matter what. You have fun trying to break the aggro-reset barrier in less than 6.6seconds, you won't make it, not even with 5 55 turrets on there - and knowing how RF works, not even with 5 65 turrets on there will you manage it. Damage wise, the Guardian does a fair bit better than the BK. It not only does not face the -% damage from Barricade, but Swiftness also ramps up Skill Damage output a little bit (I believe it's +10%) on top of ramping it up by making skills available quicker of course. Those combined makes for a not-so-much-like-a-wet-noodle-anymore tank if going offensive damage-route with a two-hander, or a more annoying tank if going offensive debuff-route with relic knives, pvp knives or pvp maces. I would suppose a Guardian could nearly nullify someone's damage-output if the Izen proc's Power Drain and it is followed up by Tendon Ripper to be honest. Yeah, it's only one target, but that could still be handy if that one target happens to be a dangerous one.

In short, as with all tanks, you're still support(ive) in PvP in terms of damage. PvE-wise, you're the best MT Cora will ever have.

[adieman]

wow.. didn't know that.. i guess ill cross to guardian..

[Myth]

._.'
Not using AoE's or splash-attacks was one of the hardest things ever for your average Cora, gg. (I am sure some of you that played Cora back then remember the infamous flood on RC whenever I had to tank Varas.)


Lmao..so true. Trying to explain the 1st skill in each tier was the single target -.-

Anyway thanks for the reply, I figured Guardian would end up being the better route but just wanted it confirmed. Also I didn't even notice the -DSR, which obviously matters when ADP means (almost) nothing against the higher end bosses.

Thanks for the very detailed replay Van, guess ill be going Guardian when/if 2.2.3 releases and wipes.

[Warmth]

._.'


Swiftness is indeed a 33% cooldown reduction (or for some even just -3s if I'm not mistaken; whichever bonus is better is given).

Black Knight's defensive buff is total win and I absolutely -loved- seeing 'em use it when I was a Bellato. It made things so much easier to drop what's Cora's "tank" class.
What people haven't noticed is that BK's defensive buff does the following:
-% damage output
+% blockrate
+%ADP (insane)
and now the not listed, barely ever noticed one: -DSR.

Why do I say it destroys DSR? Because it's quite obvious it does that. If you are not geared for block-rate, you'd have to be a total dip-shit to use this buff. All it does is destroy your chances at living to be honest - though I can see the use for just running in and taking the initial spike, but after continuous pounding, you'd be better off without it, than with it. For the ones interested in it; if you're a BK and you got some spare ports/time, just run a check on Dagnu or so. You will see that against extremely high offensive power attacks (skills, or high-end mobs, etc; basically where DSR matters) that you'll get hit for more with the buff than without it. Own observations here by the way, I might just have been very unlucky.

It's a bit of theory-craft still actually; back in giga3, where DSR didn't matter as much (but still did btw, just that ADP had more of an effect :tongue:) a friend of mine had RL on Cora (on RFX) and was a BK. He's given me the gear setup he had back then as well as some numbers; he actually confirmed that a regular Acc Gladius->Assaulter managed to out-tank him as a BK on Varas. Varas itself isn't even a high-end damage mob (well maybe it kinda was back then, but meh). And yes, he was running the Barricade buff. Explanation? Well... First we need to take into account that you couldn't get more than 40% def bonus from elementals on Cora during G3, as there simply weren't defense rings - they got added in G4.2. Now, that leaves the Acc at an advantage of 50% (2 imperfect elementals :wink:), which is offset once more by the BK being RL. Add the buffs on each and of course you would expect the BK to be better at tanking - but I guess not. He got hit more often and with higher numbers -> say wut? :confused:

What it boils down to is that you need high HP for the later end pitbosses. As always they're tanked based on HP/DSR and not based on ADP/DSR. Now with Cora, the issue is that you already need a crapton of Innana's to get to healing one tank - if you use a twintank system, you'd need even more (since you can't swap after each hit) or your healers would need to switch targets if the other tank taunts. That's simply not doable. That is why I opted for the Guardian route for the DBros when I was on Cora.

Now you could say - well, I will use a quick skill on a BK and I'll be fine. Yeah, you would be fine on aggro-holding, for sure. Now the drawback is: a Guardian using a build-up pot generates more HP than a BK on a q-skill. And since HP is where it's at.... add to that, the Barricade buff nerfing DSR... etc. Guardian just wins on the high-end PBs. It also still does a fair job still on the multi-target ones. Why is that? The Guardian's skill also works on Vampire Groan. If you have a decent-strong Leon's Knife either with Destruction talics, or possibly the BBB amulet, you will get the life-drain off of your AoE's as you finish off the minions to get them to re-pop. Granted, against multi-target pitbosses you would need to have your DPS-crew rigged with a brain, which can be quite hard to find here after all. Not using AoE's or splash-attacks was one of the hardest things ever for your average Cora, gg. (I am sure some of you that played Cora back then remember the infamous flood on RC whenever I had to tank Varas.)

What you could do to help resolve the above problem, partially, would be to use a MT / OT system. Have the BK OT grab the entire shit, then have the Guardian MT pull out the PB and stand to the side with that. Then the DPS-crew has free reign to do whatever they want.


Guardian = skillspammer with Swiftness + powerdrainer with Tendon Ripper.
Guardian makes for a better MT than a BK ever will be, as it's a guaranteed aggro-holder no matter what. You have fun trying to break the aggro-reset barrier in less than 6.6seconds, you won't make it, not even with 5 55 turrets on there - and knowing how RF works, not even with 5 65 turrets on there will you manage it. Damage wise, the Guardian does a fair bit better than the BK. It not only does not face the -% damage from Barricade, but Swiftness also ramps up Skill Damage output a little bit (I believe it's +10%) on top of ramping it up by making skills available quicker of course. Those combined makes for a not-so-much-like-a-wet-noodle-anymore tank if going offensive damage-route with a two-hander, or a more annoying tank if going offensive debuff-route with relic knives, pvp knives or pvp maces. I would suppose a Guardian could nearly nullify someone's damage-output if the Izen proc's Power Drain and it is followed up by Tendon Ripper to be honest. Yeah, it's only one target, but that could still be handy if that one target happens to be a dangerous one.

In short, as with all tanks, you're still support(ive) in PvP in terms of damage. PvE-wise, you're the best MT Cora will ever have.

Too lazy to read atm..

Bookmarked, ima read this later after dinner.. >.< Nice info..

[elvanners4]

Too lazy to read atm..

Bookmarked, ima read this later after dinner.. >.< Nice info..

ahahahaha lol :tongue:

[Polemloginz]

I bow down upon thine, o Vandread the MMO guru.

[lorenzio7]

just what i was about to ask you van... this will be useful to me after the wipe... NOW THIS IS THE REAL LEGENDARY PLAYER. MMO GURU...

[glexen]

Now officialy as per the guys up there ^
there is a wipe

[Reki]

What people haven't noticed is that BK's defensive buff does the following:
-% damage output
+% blockrate
+%ADP (insane)
and now the not listed, barely ever noticed one: -DSR.

Van already told me this a year ago. What I replied was "PUUUTAAANG IIINAAANG CCR!!!"

[[GeCube]]

hmmmmmm....how about shield miller vs. (what's the bell guardian counterpart?)...:biggrin:

[adieman]

armsman.. the myrmidon with hammARRRRR

[Vandread]

;695299']hmmmmmm....how about shield miller vs. (what's the bell guardian counterpart?)...:biggrin:
Those cannot be compared. The armsman's role is much different than the SM's role (fully offensive vs fully defensive). Purely looking at the last classes of course, but if you take the first class into account as well... going miller->armsman is pointless. The reason why K->G and K->BK are the same is simply because they are both still tanks. Yes, potentially an M->AM can tank, but it's pointless. K->G still has a specific tanking role for Cora - described in my previous post in this thread - , whereas M->AM does not have one for Bellato (all tanking should be done by SMs, period). The G portion of the KG simply adds an auto-quickskill potion to the class, as well as makes it slightly more offensive (especially for PvP circumstances). All Armsmen should just be Commando's as that is what's better for the class. Does not mean that all Guardians should be Knights though, Champion->Guardian has its own role as dps'r.